Episode Title: The Late For Changeover Show 27 Mar 2024
Date: March 27, 2024
Get out of bed and run, because you are late for changeover, your weekly space news and variety show. I’m your host, Marty Smith, and I’m joined by Mr. History, Eric Perot. Hey, I’m glad to be here excited tonight.
And we’re here to bring you the latest headlines and updates pertinent to AllGuardians and to the other terrestrial branches as well. So take your seats, get informed, and have a laugh as we present Late for Changeover. Eric, Eric, we got a special surprise for you today.
Of course, he’s not really a surprise. He’s sitting right there. Yeah.
But today we’re joined by, I think, a Colorado military legend, sir. I’m sorry to go out there. But as much as you’ve done in Colorado, I think that’s amazing.
But may I introduce retired Brigadier General Chris Petty. Sir, thanks for joining us this evening. It is my pleasure to be with you both.
Let’s have some fun and good conversation. Yes, let’s. So for those of you who don’t know, which I don’t know how you don’t know, but, sir, let me sum up your career as best I can.
All right. It’s pretty expensive. I’m going to jump.
I’m going to make big, huge jumps, because, uh, what? Let’s see. It started in, uh, geez, 86. It went to 2018.
So that’s extensive. That’s a lot of coverage here. OK, you went to Heritage High School in Littleton, Colorado.
You graduated in 83. You went to West Point in 86. And you completed Ranger School.
Wait, that’s not right. Yeah, it’s confusing because I graduated West Point in 87. Yeah, I was one of the first groups of cadets that was allowed to go back and compete for Ranger School in 86.
Well, oh, OK. That’s why I got my dates screwed up. So you went in 83, graduated in 87.
Yes. You got to attend and complete Ranger School. So you’re tab.
Are you an airborne Ranger, sir? I am. All right. Oh, I know.
You’re what all the cadences are made of. Well, not anymore, but yeah. You’re a commissioner of Second Lieutenant Aviation.
And I’m going to, and you went to NTC. That was your first assignment. Yes, it was.
National training. Beautiful NTC where every day’s a war, except Christmas. That’s right.
Were you, were you, did you ever flight Op 4? I did. I did. And that was one of the greatest missions for a young lieutenant.
Boy, you are strafing, you know, armor columns and it was great, great, great flying. My, my old strafing, right? Yeah. Yeah.
I remember we got attacked once out there and the guy made three passes before anybody got around that, but we are artillery. So we weren’t expecting. Yeah.
So I remember one guy got a shot off on the, on their egress. And I was like, well, good job. Yeah.
Good job. Let’s think prior about aviation next time. Yeah.
Pull out your kill card and lay down for a while. You left active duty in 91. You joined the Colorado Army National Guard to command a Charlie Company.
First of the 131st aviation regiment in Eagle. Yeah. Let me make it clear.
I didn’t leave active duty army because I didn’t like the army, but the Cold War was over and the future actually pretty boring. Let’s be honest. This is right before does a storm, or does it shield even started? So that’s really why I got off active duty is like, oh, this looks boring.
That’s right. The wall just came down. The peace dividend was raining on all of us.
We were shaking hands with all the bad guys again. That’s right. So it was a different time.
And up in Eagle, you did that high altitude flying school, right? Yep. That’s fascinating. That was another great assignment for a pilot to learn his craft.
Yeah, it had to be a little white knuckle in there too. Lots of it, lots of it. Yeah.
And you get, you get proficient at it and that’s where helicopters are in demand is high altitudes under, under a great strain of loads. And so you have to manage power and you might as well train in the Rocky Mountains as we, as we demonstrated, uh, over 20 years in Afghanistan. So yeah, yep.
Uh, in 94, you moved to Buckley and the Air National Guard, uh, that was there and you assumed command of Alpha Company second to the 135th, uh, aviation battalion. Uh, later, you, later you assume command of second battalion, 135th aviation regiment. And in 2006, you went, you led the battalion’s deployment to Balad, Iraq, supporting joint special operations command.
Yes. That was a clearly a highlight for an army officer. So yeah, we could talk about that if you want to.
Well, we’ll see. Maybe Eric has some questions. Uh, after being promoted to full Colonel, so you see, I’m taking big leaps here.
It’s good. I’m glad you took command of the 89th troop brigade. Is that where the Sergeant Major was from? Yeah.
89th troop command brigade. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. After that command, you became chief of staff for the Colorado Army National Guard. One of the, my most challenging assignments ever.
And I love the episodes we’ve done. And for those of you who listen, if you listen, if you’re interested in more of general petty, I’ve got four episodes out there on the swearing in podcast where you can hear some fascinating details about some of the stuff that you did. I mean, the challenges that you didn’t even see coming.
Yeah. It’s, it’s an interesting story. I mean, lo and behold, after 31 years of a strange career, it actually does kind of make an interesting story.
It does. Yeah, absolutely. I would say so.
So finally you said enough, you’re going to retire. That was it, right? Yeah, right. I mean, I had the, I had the cream of job in the Colorado Army National Guard.
I’m chief of staff. I mean, it’s all bird Colonel. Yeah, you run in the guard for the Azure General and it was a great assignment.
Very challenging as I mentioned, but no, you get a call. You get a phone call. Right.
I’m all processing at Fort Carson. Can I get a phone call? I get a phone call. They said essentially they wanted to promote you to Brigadier General and you agreed and you did that you were promoted Brigadier General in 2014, 10 years ago.
Yeah, I know. I know and you got sent to Sarajevo Bosnia as a NATO commander. I did.
That was a boy baptism under fire for a young general, which you know, it’s like, okay, you’re now in charge of the NATO mission in this strange and this strange land that still has a lot of tension and its own little cold water. It’s it’s it’s bubbling back up again. Yeah, it is.
So I was a really fascinating assignment. I hope people actually would tune in. And that episode was great, especially when you’re talking about a I’m going to come in and be an American here and they’re like, hold on there.
Yeah, it’s not that way except at the same time, except at the same time the odd thing is for a brand new minted one-star. You’re like, you’re like the man. I mean in Bosnia NATO is is everything and so since you’re the commander NATO, you are like top of the heat.
Yeah, so it’s a really like you go from zero to hero and you know, you get out of the Pentagon or your one star and it was like, hey, you can’t you can’t not hit a one star, right? Yeah. Yeah. And all of a sudden your demand.
So it was a really interesting and challenging assignment. And yeah, we can’t go into all the detail of it. So what wasn’t there a rear Admiral with the Supreme Commander? There was a yeah, there’s a real animal.
My boss in Naples was a rear Admiral in Naples. Yes. Starvedus.
He wasn’t he had just changed out when I got there. Okay. Yeah, the name of my first boss escapes me because I had two bosses while I was there.
But yeah, so I would like to Croatia. Oh for just a quick three-month tour that we got to play a little security for some some convoy operations. So I got to wear the light blue beret.
Oh, wow. Yeah, good. That was a pretty cool.
That was a great deployment for me as well. Yeah, it’s a great it’s a great assignment. And you know, Southeast Europe is beautiful and friendly and I mean, I really want to go back as just a tourist and go see all the old sites and oh, yeah, then revisit some of my staff.
I mean, they’re wonderful people. So great part of the great part of the country. Finally in 2015, you went to the Pentagon did a couple assignments out there and then you were reassigned back here at US Northcom at Pete as a deputy director of operations.
And then finally you got to retire in 2018. I did I did. That’s a good feeling.
Yeah, it’s a good feeling and you know, most of us all of us, you know, Marty you included you did your job and you served and you you did well and you’re happy that you were able to serve and do good things. Now, I thought it was fascinating that that decision wasn’t necessarily just left up to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The backstory is, you know, the only way I was going to get my second star, which was approved by Congress was to stay in DC and and you know, my wife’s like look enough is enough. You know, at this point, I mean, I’m mostly mostly in the guard. Remember, I’ve been gone for my life for about seven years if you add it all up.
So she’s like you can go but I’m not going with you and I’m like it’d be at least another three years. So really, you know, family is more important in the end, you know, unless we’re all-scale war. It was time.
It’s fine. It was great. I’m impressed, sir, that that was such a strong marriage because most of us if we talked we’ve all had a divorce here or there.
So kudos kudos to you and your wife for making that work. Yeah, I appreciate that. It’s not it’s not easy, but thanks to thanks to her through the deployment and everything.
I mean, I was gone for two years in Iraq and and beautiful Fort Hood. You know, four teenage boys when I was deployed. Imagine that with us tough.
So she held it all together and did so much. I owed that last act to her. You know, it’s it’s unheralded anymore because you know, there’s a and you knew enough officers too.
Yeah, and I knew enough enlisted and officers who were like, nope, I did 30 years. The wife knows her role, you know, but it’s it’s more like a partnership at that time. It’s more like it has to be working together to go that long to be without each other for that long.
Yeah, and it’s easy to chase rank. You guys know this. It’s really easy to chase the next star.
That’s a it’s very there’s a lot of incentives, you know, financial and you were already a That was already. Yeah, so I mean it would have happened. It’s just a question of it would have required at least a three-year commitment for me.
Yeah, so it just wasn’t it just wasn’t worth it. It’s okay. I’m happy.
It was wonderful, right and nothing compared to my deployment as a battalion commander, you know in combat with doing the real deal. Nothing is ever going to compare that really sure. Well, you know, if it’s any solace for those who don’t know the military ranks Brigadier sounds like the highest anyway, so, you know, I tell my friends, you know, jokingly, of course, I say, you know, they say if they’re trying to introduce me formally or something is a Brigadier General, you know, it’s just general just general and it’s not an ego thing.
It’s a polite thing. Just general sure, you know, yeah, probably the only ones who want to know your rank are the three tenets and what general was he? Yeah, okay. Yeah, bring him in less.
Yeah, so I don’t want to go backwards here, but I do have a question real quick. What why the army because you sound very motivated as far from a combat perspective something that you might have been looking for early on when you when you approached, you know, the wall coming down could be a boring time. Yeah.
So is that why the army? I was thinking maybe Marines. No, I mean, you know, the army is the United States Premier Land Force. I mean, let’s I’m not doing a selling job for the army, but I mean the Marines are awesome.
I’ve worked with them that supported them. I’ve done a lot with them and I really respect them, but you know, it’s a limited role. I mean the Army’s everywhere all the time and it’s just the backbone.
Yeah, I mean if you want to win a war you have to involve the army in a big way. So but you know, honestly the catalyst not to get too far into the weeds is my father was a West Pointer and I saw his yearbook one day when I was a sophomore in high school and I was just an idealistic kid. It’s like wow.
This is like, you know, camera on steroids. You know, I want to be a part. I want to be a part of this.
I want to be a knight, you know, and West Point was just such a draw in that young idealistic mind to be part of that culture of the mass history. So there was no doubt. I mean even I was accepted to the Naval Academy.
It wasn’t even a wasn’t even a decision for question. Did you go out there and visit or West Point? I did. Yeah, I know, but I mean the Naval Academy.
No, no, I thought all my eggs were in the basket and and work. Thankfully, I got to come into the Coast Guard and I was like, I’m from Colorado. I don’t know how to sail.
I’m not going. Yeah, my son my son’s a Coast Guard Academy Grant, but but that was back then when they were under they were under the other department before they moved them. Oh, they were under prop.
Oh, yeah, they weren’t under DoD. Yeah, yeah. Now they moved us.
Yeah, as soon as they moved them, then they were getting all these missions. I was like, yeah, yeah. But yeah, that’s your that’s your answer.
Eric. That’s why okay. Yeah, sure.
Haroldry long gray line. Yeah, all the history of is amazing. All the all the people that you’re connected to.
Yeah. I told these guys. It was my it was my hope that I would be more involved in something like that.
Of course, you never want to go to war. You never hope to go to work. So I was looking at the Marine Corps, but they couldn’t take me as soon as I wanted to go.
And of course, the Air Force recruiter was right next door and he says, you want to carry a gun here? We’ll show you that’s the way life happens, you know, a door opens, you go and it changes your life. It’s young people need to understand that. It’s just the way it goes.
So that’s why I that’s why I introduce you as a Colorado military legend. Yeah, really. I’m a bit facetious, but really you’ve done huge.
She’s all the assignments you’ve had for the Colorado Guard. Well, I’ll tell you Marty, my 15 minutes of fame though remains to this day. I’m the Black Hawk that chased down balloon boy.
Oh, you’re kidding. So quick story. This is back in what was balloon boy like 19? No, 2009.
I think it’s 2009. That sounds about right. Yeah, everyone remembers this story.
You’re audience partner. I mean it’s a worldwide story. That’s what makes it so cool.
Yeah, so I’m the Black Hawk that gets launched to try to rescue the kid. This nine-year-old kid that’s supposed to be on the balloon way. So we strap on a hoist and we load a medic and a crew chief and get the Black Hawk up in the air.
We chase this balloon. We shut down DIA. My Black Hawk shut down the entire DIA airspace.
I was a moving I was a moving TFR temporary flight restriction, which for pilots is like there is such a thing. You know, I mean, yeah, so anyway to shorten the story the balloon started descending the cops converge. We’re talking from the air.
We’re circling the boys not on board. So then we launch into recovery of a dead body mission, you know, trying to spot a body nobody knew right? Yeah, nobody knew so it turned real sad. You know, we’re like, okay, we got to look for a dead body and then, you know, hours later we go back to refuel at Buckley and we get word that the boy was found safe in the attic.
And we’re like, yeah, you know, happy ending. And it’s like, okay, what was all that about? But that was a worldwide story Colorado story. And it went what how long was he up there? Hours, right? I mean, the balloon was up.
Yeah, the balloon was drifting for at least a couple hours long enough to get me and the crew and the Black Hawk and get it going and chasing them. Wow, yeah, were there civilian helicopters involved as well? No, no, they were they were expressly forbidden from coming into my TFR. I mean, this was that’s FAA serious stuff.
That’s awesome there. So all the news helicopters were still, you know, two or three miles away. They couldn’t they couldn’t penetrate my little bubble.
Oh, I guess there’s no like available civilian helicopters running around to do the mission that you were on. No, there’s not. I mean, there’s not we were going to we were going to lower up a medic on a hoist and grab the boy.
I mean, you know, highly dangerous mission and helicopter with a balloon. Sure, it could just come up into the rotor system and all that. But you know what, these are guardsmen man, we’re going to try to get it done.
We’re going to we’re going to take some risk and try to get it done to save a life. It was a it’s a great little story, but it’s a weird story. That’s weird that you’re involved with it.
I mean, that was the guy. So that’s my 15 minutes of time to say and to get props to what was then Buckley Air National Guard Base. Yeah, I know the 135th aviation brigade and the 140th air wing.
I think those National Guard pilots who flew your helicopters and those F-16 National Guard guys always get kudos. They’re always a professional unit. I ever hear best in the business.
Yeah, they’re real good good pilots and they train these mountains. So they’re they’re excellent pilots. Actually, well, it’s nice that you can keep the same pilot and retain his skills.
Yeah, years and years and years. Interrupted your story, but it was over. Oh, yeah, the story of me was over good.
Well, we’re just beginning. That’s a pretty big story. I don’t think we can come to an end unless we cut it off.
Yeah, that’s right. Let’s see. Okay.
In addition to your great career. You also run a website called Battle Digest.com and I’ll put the link here with the podcast so people can find it. Yeah, military history simplified basically is the big header right there.
It is it’s you know, I didn’t I wasn’t a history buff. I didn’t major in history. But as I get older as many of you as you guys probably know, of course, I know Erica since he’s Mr. History.
As we get older, I mean it becomes so much more important and we’re more interested in it because the lessons are timeless. They are timeless if you pick the right lessons and so I you know, the origin story I told you Marty was I’m a young officer and I’m just one of these guys that believes in our our obligation to train our soldiers, especially our officers in officer professional development topics, you know, things that are outside your normal training program, right? The Army, it’s kind of mandated that commanders will train professional development. There are soldiers, you know, in different groups like you might task your NCOs to train the NCOs etc.
So so I’m usually I’m one of these guys that brings my officers together even as a young captain and I’m trying to teach them classes on different things that are that will enhance their military skills. Well history is the best topic you can approach with that because there’s so much there’s so much in it. So so I put these classes together and it would take a lot of time, a lot of research and I’m building these overhead, you know, at the time is like the overhead projector thing, you know, you guys.
Transparency one, two, a knob and building these slides and everything and and I’m scratching my head for years going why didn’t the Army have something to make this easy? That was the genesis of the idea. So I think so for, you know, for 30 years, I’m thinking of this as I’m doing it and I’m thinking well, I’ll just create it and that really was the genesis of Battle Digest is let me put together a simple comprehensive but simple Reader’s Digest version of these famous battles where you really can get all the key elements, you can follow the flow of the action and decision-making all the way down to the tactical action and pull the lessons learn then excuse me. I even put discussion questions on the back of this thing.
I made it. I made it the one-stop shop. Well, and that’s fantastic because where were you when I had to go through those military history classes because our our professor just gave us who is it Matzloft? Is that is that the guy’s name? Oh, you’re talking about the the real dry military history guy who just had to read his book and it was 5,000 troops went here and 2,000 troops went here and at the end of the day, you just wow, this is a dry history.
You could ever read the other thing I found in doing all the research for these battles and I’ve got 32 in print now and I’m working on 33 right now the battle Hastings. I’m working on right now. But what I learned is as I read all these great books, it’s hard to follow the actual timeline of decision-making and action and so that’s one of the things that takes me a lot of time in these battles is to put it all together.
So it’s a very logical flow. Who did what to whom when and why did it matter? And how did that lead to the next thing? That’s hard to get from these books. They you know, they bounce around everywhere.
Sure, you don’t really use you start to lose that sequence. So I do all that and the army has those lesson plans and I have a I was clearing out some papers and I found a couple and they’re and they’re just as dry. They don’t they don’t paint the picture.
Yeah, like what I’ve seen through your book. So yeah, so that’s what I do now. I mean, that’s my business is Battle Digest and I really enjoy it.
I really enjoy it and I think yeah, I think that I think that’s huge because the information that a battle can provide on leadership and decision making especially with the different levels of coordination and communication. That’s a needed piece to our leaders and some of the people that I have served under and I know Marty can speak to that too. Didn’t have any of it.
Right started with nothing and that would have been such a great tool. Yeah, exactly. And it just it’s also pattern recognition.
You know, you and I don’t have the time to learn all these lessons because we’re not going to fight that many battles. And so you might as well learn from all the pattern recognition you can get from history. Oh, absolutely.
And because I have this consistent format, it’s always sort of packaged the same and so you I mean really my theory is I can train young officers to recognize these patterns because it’s kind of a similar format and they’ll look at a battle, a campaign or something they’re about to plan. And they’ll see the same pattern and recognize historical pieces that can influence their thinking and decision-making. I really think Battle Digest can do that over time.
Very well and and one of the things about Battle Digest you can go out there and you can order. Anywhere up to several hundred if you wanted to yeah, I think right. Yeah, copies of these brochures battle specific to teach your own class or to use in your own way, right? And I’ve had units do that.
It’s it’s wonderful there. Some units are using them as real OPD officer professional development tools. And it’s so much better than in the Army produced at least what I remember.
Yeah, I mean you could you can literally hand these out and say okay, read this tonight or read this in half an hour and then we’re gonna have a really good discussion on it. Along with your website. You also have this book.
Yeah, 12 batter battles. Every American should know. Yeah, you can find this on Amazon.
That’s where I got this one. That’s my sign copy Eric. Yeah, I signed.
Yeah, I’m a little jealous of that. By the way, I’m gonna have to fix that Eric. If you go to my website, you can order a book.
It’s the same price as Amazon and I will sign it for you. Perfect. Everyone on my website.
I sign them anyway. Okay. Yeah, just as a courtesy.
It’s nice. Yeah, well, which came first? The book or the website? The website. Quite a bit.
Oh, no kidding. And the book was kind of just a natural offshoot. It was a natural offshoot.
I got all this great content and you know, people are interested in it. But a lot of people can’t grasp this. You know, this whole trifle brochure thing.
It’s you know, for a lot of people. This is like what? Yeah, but a book. I mean everyone knows what a book is.
So I decided to package 12 of the critical battles that Americans really should know. I mean cultural history. We should guard this stuff.
And so that’s that’s why I did it. Well, and to summarize a little bit, I won’t go through all 12. But you hit all the big ones, you know, the Yorktown, Gettysburg, Pearl Harbor, Midway, D-Day, Desert Storm.
The Desert Storm one is fantastic, I think. Yeah, because it’s hard to see all those moving pieces. It took me a long time to again sequence it so you can follow it.
Yeah, right. Because a lot happened in those 90s. With that many units? That’s truly getting in the head of the planters, which is kind of nice.
What were they thinking when they said we’re going to do this first? I like it. Exactly. Yeah, that’s what really that’s what really matters is the decision-making behind this stuff and then how people react to changing conditions, of course, but it’s the decision-making that goes into these campaigns and battles that I’m fascinated with.
Yeah, me too. Speaking of that, since we are almost to April and going through your book, I was like, hey, look at this battle is right in April, the first week of April. And that is the Battle of Shiloh.
Yeah. So you guys want to talk a little bit about the Battle of Shiloh? I do. Sounds great.
Which is in your book. And to be honest with you, I’m glad we’re doing it because I didn’t know much about Shiloh. You know, Gettysburg dominates, you know, the casual history guy.
Gettysburg kind of dominates that. But Shiloh, as you point out, well, I’ll let you point it out. Why did you choose the Battle of Shiloh to include in your 12 battles every American should know? Because Shiloh is extremely significant to the Civil War for a couple of reasons.
So like you said, everybody knows Gettysburg and Antietam. That’s the Eastern Front. So the Western Front, we don’t seem to know much about the Western Front.
People have heard of Vicksburg and that was a big decisive battle. But Shiloh, the reason I chose Shiloh is because it was, number one, it was the true emergence of Grant and Sherman on what I would say is the national stage. They were big factors at Shiloh.
They really made a name for themselves at Shiloh. And if it wasn’t for Shiloh, you probably wouldn’t have Grant running the Union Army at the end of the war. And you certainly wouldn’t have Sherman running, you know.
Yeah, the Southern campaign, basically down south. So it made those two characters and it influenced Lincoln and that’s one reason. The second reason is people don’t realize that Shiloh was the bloodiest battle in American history up to that moment.
So, so think about Bull Run. You know, people have heard of Bull Run. That happened in, let’s see, I wrote down July of 61.
So the war starts at 61, roughly April timeframe. So in July, you get Bull Run. And the American public still thinks the Civil War is going to be won within, you know, months and it’s not that big of a deal.
So that’s happening in the East. And then you fast forward to April of 62 and it’s this bloodbath. Shiloh is a bloodbath.
24,000 casualties. So, so if you put it in the time, yeah, put it in the context of the time. This is unseen.
This is unfathomable to America. People forget that, totally. What had been the, what had been the biggest battle prior to Shiloh? In terms of American casualties, yeah, it was a character.
I know that and I, I’d have to think about that one. Too much detail. That the totals were that much higher that they were at Shiloh.
Yeah, I mean, that eye-opening. Yeah, I mean, think about Revolutionary War battles. You know, we lose, we lose a hundred here.
The Brits lose a hundred there, you know, things like that. And then Bull Run is a pretty big battle. And that’s what did I say? 3,500 casualties.
Well, and Shiloh is a monster. Yeah, if I understand, Shiloh was still pretty early on in the war, as you said, 61, it started beginning at 62 with Shiloh. So you had some inexperience.
There wasn’t a lot of combat veterans, I would assume. Right, but it also got worse, Eric, as you know. So this was a harbinger of, I call it the wake-up call.
This was the wake-up call for both sides that the Civil War was going to be long and bloody. That’s maybe one of the most important reasons people should know about Shiloh. Okay, very good.
Yeah, very good. So can you talk us through the battle? Yeah, so that’s kind of why it’s important to history, which is why I put in the book and why Americans should know it. But you know, operationally, it was also, it also opened up the Tennessee River Valley, which, you know, connects to the Mississippi and that whole segment of the Western front in the Civil War.
So, I mean, this was critical to the Union advance. So we’ll talk about, we’ll talk about the larger strategic issues before we get into the battle. So you have, the cast of characters here is, Ulysses S. Grant ends up commanding this, the Union army at Shiloh.
Yeah, on the Confederate side, is General Albert Sidney Johnston. A name a lot of people have heard of. I mean, he was the South’s top general.
This is before Lee really came on the stage. Lee was still in Richmond as Jefferson Dave. This is military advisor, essentially.
So Johnston was their top dog, and he’s out West. But he has, in the initial stage of the Civil War, the South gained a lot of territory. They rushed into Kentucky.
They took over a lot of Tennessee, and they held Missouri. So Johnston’s now, in early 62, faced with this really long and awkward front that he has to defend. The Union is just kicking off, recruiting, or building forces.
So Johnston knows that he’s in a difficult spot, and he’s always kind of outnumbered anyway, but it’s going to get worse. Because it’s a long line. It’s a long line for an army to defend.
I mean, it’s a 600 mile line or something. I mean, you know, it’s a lot to defend. I guess the Union Army that you know is growing by the week.
So Johnston decides, and we’ll talk about the North in a second. So Johnston’s in the defensive now. He’s shifted from offense because he knows what’s coming.
So he withdraws some of his troops, and he decides that he has to consolidate his position, collapse a little bit at his front, so he can better defend, and he brings up Bragg’s Army from the Gulf to create a larger force, because he has to disrupt the Union advance that he knows is coming. Because it’s no secret, the Grant’s Army is growing, Buell’s Army is growing. So that’s where Johnston exists.
Okay, and Johnston, by the way, was criticized extensively in the South. Jefferson Davis personally had to save his job. Yeah, because he withdrew.
Because he stopped. Yeah, he withdrew forces and consolidated. That was a big deal.
But Davis said, no, he’s my guy. If we don’t have it, if Johnston’s not a general, then we don’t have a general in this war, you know, something like that. Hey, sir, let me see if this is a better… That is fantastic.
Does that help in this prep? Yeah, this helps for this phase of the discussion, for sure. So you can see, just to orient you to the map here, so you can see Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas. So, I mean, look at Johnston’s forces up there.
Polk’s up there in 1861. Crittenden is up there, you know, fighting Thomas in January. But none of these things are going well, and the Union side is building.
So now, this is all Johnston’s army. He’s consolidating. You see the arrow that says Bragg at the bottom.
So he’s moved Bragg up to Corinth. Okay, Corinth is a major rail intersection, critical for the South to transport supplies and goods and all that stuff. It’s interesting, you know, in the East, while they’re fighting threatening capitals, you know, the West is all about railroads and rivers.
So it’s a totally different war dynamic, strategically. So with that in mind, yeah, go ahead. The city of Corinth was Grant’s target, correct? Yes, and we’re going to get to that right now, because now, so that’s what the Confederacy and Johnston are doing and thinking.
Meanwhile, on the Union side, you have, let’s see, you know, I should never have become a historian, because I’m a terrible memory. Most historians have great memories, and I could just recall facts and dates. I’m terrible at it.
So that’s why I just write it down. So General Halleck is the commander out West for Lincoln. Lincoln’s frustrated with Halleck, quite frankly, because in the winter of 61, transition into 62, Halleck doesn’t really have a strategy.
They’re really just reacting to southern moves. So Lincoln’s getting frustrated with Halleck. So Halleck gets together with his commanders and puts together a strategy.
They’re going to do an offensive move down the Tennessee River. They’re going to, you know, open up that corridor for a Union advance, take Corinth, and, you know, bring the war more to the south. So that’s his basic strategy.
So Halleck, so Grant comes to Halleck and says, hey, sir, how about I go down and take Fort Henry and Donaldson to get this party started? Okay. I’m paraphrasing. You’re probably going to take the forts to get the party started, but Grant came up with a plan for his army and Halleck approved it.
And lo and behold, in February, Grant has taken both Henry and Donaldson, opening up the Tennessee River, essentially. It’s a big move. I mean, it kind of collapses the initial gates that protect the Tennessee River.
In fact, Union steamboats are, gunboats are going all down the Tennessee River, bombing, you know, taking out bridges and doing, destroying railroad junctions and bombing militia camps and all kinds of, all kinds of damaging stuff. Yeah. And by the way, they bagged like 10,000 Confederate prisoners.
So, so that got no press. Yeah. That hurt the cause big time.
Wow. So Grant has this success at Henry and Donaldson, Fort Henry and Donaldson in February. And Halleck, interestingly, you know, his goal is quarant.
He’s made it clear. He says, okay, Grant, you go down to Tennessee and you stage at, forget the name of the town. It might’ve been Savannah, but it wasn’t Shiloh.
It was north of Shiloh. You stage your army and you wait for Buell, who’s going to come from, you see there, Bowling Green and that area. He’s going to, I guess he was in Nashville at this point.
He’s going to march his army down from Nashville, link up with you so you can attack Corinth together. Halleck was envisioning himself as the commander of the final attack in Corinth. So Grant moves his army down the river, sets up a spot at Pittsburgh Landing and one of his divisions is a little bit north and that comes into play later.
And Buell is really slowed in the march. So he’s really delayed, muddy roads, some bad planning, a bunch of reasons. But the bottom line is Buell is really slow to unite with Grant.
Now, Johnston on the south, he knows what’s coming. He knows the two armies are trying to unite. So Johnston, I think it’s a lot of credit here for pulling a Napoleonic move.
He’s going to hit Grant first before the armies can join, which is right thinking from Johnston and see Eric’s nodding his head because he knows that’s where you’re supposed to hit the smaller army when they’re still small. That’s right and before they can join forces. So Johnston gets a lot of credit for his plan.
He says, okay, I’m going to sneak up. I’m going to surprise them at their encampment at Pittsburgh Landing before Buell can join. Okay, so that kind of sets the stage for the battle.
Any questions or comments on that? I do, but I think you’re probably going to cover it as we get more into the battle. I find it interesting from what I understand of this was Grant wasn’t so much concerned with being attacked. Yeah, I’m going to get to that because it’s what I figured.
Yeah, it’s a great question. Of course, but it’s a it’s a real failing on Grant’s part, but part of his development he’s a young he’s a young general. He’s never commanded this kind of force before not even close.
So these generals have to grow into their skin a little bit and and this was a real growth opportunity for Grant and Sherman and the reason I picked Sherman more than the others because obviously there was a lot of division commanders under Grant is Sherman was a pivotal character leader at the battle. I mean Sherman deserves a lot of credit for holding the line and keeping his calm and I mean, he really did it remarkable job. So so he grew a lot and Grant grew a lot.
But one of Grant’s failings as Eric appropriately points out is as he’s camped at Pittsburgh Landing on this map. It’s north of Shiloh there really kind of where that arrow is for the Union Army. It’s not far.
It’s like seven or nine miles north of Shiloh or Pittsburgh. No, Pittsburgh Landing is right by Shiloh. I’m sorry Grant’s headquarters is north.
I’m sorry if I confused you. So they’re all at Pittsburgh Landing and Grant’s not there. His headquarters is nine miles north up the river because they’re not expecting an attack.
Their mindset is that Confederates are in Corinth and they are waiting to be attacked and they know it. And so really unfortunately Grant dismisses all preparations and secure what we call security. He really fails at security.
See that’s where where he loses me sir. I mean even today in modern armies you dismount from a vehicle you’re providing security immediately. I know I know so for that to happen even then really surprises me.
It’s a great example of my opinion Eric. It’s a great example of like the biases that are in commanders minds. You know, he was so offensive and he was convinced that the Confederates were in the defense and waiting that he just discounted the reports and there were reports.
There were skirmishes three days before the battle. In fact Sherman failed to Sherman was I mean Sherman has some direct quotes where he was cocky saying, you know, you’re just a young green soldier. That’s nothing.
Don’t worry about it. The enemy is in Corinth. Don’t think don’t tell me that again.
I’ll have you sent to the rear. I think the taking of the two forts. I think he became lack a better word a cocky said, you know, the forces they’re not stronger than we are.
We’re numerically superior than they are. We took these two forts relatively easy. I’m not scared.
Yeah, I mean it’s that was really his first command action is Henry and Donaldson. So maybe that really flavored his judgment. So regardless he failed at what we call security, which is making sure you don’t get attacked.
The enemy doesn’t surprise you. So they are camped and they’re ignoring some of these skirmishes actually as we mentioned. But Johnston really pulls off a great surprise even though his army is slowed and he wants to attack on the fifth.
He can’t the roads are muddy. This is this is rainy season. The roads are muddy.
He slowed his subordinates by the time they get within a couple miles of the Union camp, you know, his his subordinate commanders are really nervous. Some are saying hey, you need to call this off boss. We’ve been compromised and you know, he’s like, damn it.
We’re gonna water our horses in the Tennessee River in the morning. I’m strong. Yeah, so and you know, Johnston’s right in this case.
Because he really achieved operational and tactical surprise. I mean, it’s it’s it’s amazing when you move a force of 60,000 soldiers to achieve that kind of surprise is an amazing feat. So Johnston does deserve credit again for that move.
So Johnston’s in the plus column still grants him the minus column right because of his violation of the principle of war security. So anyway, the so what’s happening is Johnston’s Army is now assembled. It’s the morning of the 6th.
Yeah, this is all that I wanted it to this is probably the next best graphic to just you know, the overview and Johnston’s horses here. Yeah, here’s where Johnston starts to screw up though. So the morning concept of the operation by Johnston is to attack corps of rest, which is a pretty solid plan for this kind of train.
It’s very heavily wooded. There’s ravines. I mean, this is going to be difficult terrain to keep an army online.
Very difficult terrain. So Johnston’s concept is sound. I would have probably done a little differently, but but his subordinate PT Beauregard, PTG Beauregard could be precise.
Who is the hero of Fort Sumpter and Bull Run? So he’s incredible guy. He’s his second in command, but for some reason, which is not exactly clear. I looked at every book I could find.
It’s not exactly clear why but PT Beauregard changes his plan and basically lines them up as depicted in that bottom picture. So he lines up all the corps basically. It says, okay, we’re going to attack this way.
And so you can see Hardy’s Corps is in the lead and they peel off and you know advance into Sherman and Prentice and you know, and then he’s followed by Polk and then Brad goes out to the right, but it from the beginning of the events and by the way, let me let me back up a little bit. So the opening moves are, you know, one of the Union brigade commanders, not division commanders sends out Scout party. He’s not going to violate the principal security.
That was Colonel Peabody. Yeah, Colonel Peabody ever Peabody. That’s where I was going to go back to a question with you.
Very good. So so Pete, Colonel Peabody is a smart man. Obviously, he’s on the front and he knows better.
He’s heard fire. He’s heard campfires. He’s heard the noise.
He’s like, holy shit. Somebody sounds he sends out his patrol. Like a good commander does and they get engaged at like, you know, five o’clock four o’clock in the morning.
It’s early. The Sun’s not even totally coming up yet. And so at least they got a little bit of advance warning, but not enough.
I mean, it doesn’t change anything really because as that force gets pushed as the Confederates really start their jump off and they start their assault at like six or seven that you know, am I forget all the details of the time, but it doesn’t matter as they start their assault. They are overrunning Union camps where soldiers are still cooking breakfast. Yeah, they are sleeping.
I mean, it’s a total surprise except for, you know, the advance scouts and some some subordinate commanders were ready, but not not so so the Union lines are starting to collapse quickly. Soldiers are throwing down the rifles and running. I mean all kinds of stuff is happening.
It’s total chaos. But the good thing for the Union side is the Confederates are already getting intermingled units or intermixing because these these lines are coming up and trying to fan out in the trees and it’s just really not a good scheme of maneuver and it’s backfiring on them early. So their advance is really slow.
And then you have some of these commanders like Sherman who really put up a tenacious fight and I mean guys like Sherman saved. There’s a couple other heroes of the battle here, but Sherman really delayed and confused the Confederate advance enough that you could probably say he saved the day in the end because he delayed their advance by hours with, you know, a staunch defense and he pulled back and defended again and pulled back and defended again. Yeah, so that was happening during this chaotic hours, the first hours of the battle.
Meanwhile, Grant’s up at his headquarters and there’s no reason to criticize him for being away because he wasn’t expecting an attack at this point. He hears the cannon fire and he, you know, interrupts his breakfast. He gets on his steamer, heads on down and by the time he lands at like nine o’clock or whatever it was, it’s total chaos.
I mean soldiers are streaming from the battlefield running back to the rear where the river boats are and the supplies are. And it’s like Grant just walks into this chaotic scene. So he talks to Sherman a little bit, gets quick assessment, rides forward, you know, see where the lines are and all that good stuff.
So Grant, Grant starts to get, Grant starts to get in the plus column again. Well, well, Johnston’s getting in the minus column here with his first mistake, which really was, was changing his scheme of maneuver at the last minute. Hey, so would you like that other map, the afternoon of the sixth? No, not yet.
Okay. No, you’re trying to hurry me along. No, no, no.
I just, I’m trying to follow to provide. No, I’ll tell you. I’ll tell you when to listen captain.
I’ll tell you when to flip the slide. Senior master sergeant and captain. It’s a brigadier general.
I mean, no one just having fun. Absolutely. So so this is this is real chaos, but the numbers, the Confederate numbers are coming to bear.
The Union lines are being pushed back. Some are crumbling and falling back on other divisions, etc. So it’s a very chaotic scene.
So Grant restores some order Sherman really is an anchor that really probably saved the day a little bit if you, if you want to trace it back to that. But I like to, I like decision-making focus. So, so Johnston’s first mistake was letting his scheme of maneuver get changed, and that was already manifesting itself in the early hours of the operation.
The second, I think the second major mistake, and I’m just looking at the notes because I don’t want to get too lost in the details here either. But the second major mistake was there was there was something that happened over if you can see on the far right of the map, especially the top map. See where it says Stuart over there on the in the blue.
Stuart is a brigade commander up there on the top right of the Union forces. So here’s where the Confederates made their second big mistake. So Stuart’s a brigade commander.
He hasn’t seen a lot of combat and he’s like really nervous because the whole world is erupting and he’s holding the left flank against the river. So it’s obviously an important spot. So Stuart starts moving his brigade around trying to anticipate a point of attack where he can establish a defensive decision and he’s moving this brigade around enough that one of Johnston’s aides comes riding back and basically with the report that says hey, sir, there’s a there’s an entire Union division on our right flank that’s getting ready to attack.
So for Johnston, that’s a critical development based on bad bad report and that intel. Intel. Because, you know, this flank is crucial for Johnston’s plan.
You know, if the if the Union Army starts rolling Johnston’s right flank, he can’t possibly push and I skip this part, but Johnston’s plan was to actually unhinge Grant’s left flank and push him away from the river into the swamps and stuff where he could just destroy him slowly. So so this right flank of the Confederate right flank was crucial to Johnston’s vision of the how the battles to transpire. So Johnston overreacts to this report.
He sends Breckenridge, which is his reserve force. So he sends his entire reserve Army Corps. He sends his Corps to the right to try to prevent that Union what he thinks is an attack.
That’s his second big mistake because Breckenridge is very very delayed. It’s very slow movement. It takes him hours to get there.
He takes that whole force out of play. He takes the whole he takes Johnston’s entire reserve out of play. Yeah.
And and Stewart does a great job, you know, defending. It’s very difficult terrain. So it really helped Stewart a lot.
So Stewart and another another fellow brigade commander who his name escapes me. They really defend that flank there, but they’re forced to fall back over time. But meanwhile, he’s used his reserves and he spent a lot of time and mental energy on this false threat that he’s reacted his whole army to.
So that’s really a second big mistake. So the battle is developing and the third piece of significant action is takes place at the Hornet’s Nest. The famous part of the battle of Schuyler is the Hornet’s Nest.
And here’s why. So as Union forces are pushing that as the Confederates are pushing the Union’s back into a big, you know, convex form against the Pittsburgh landing. Wallace and this is H.L. Wallace.
There’s two Wallace’s involved in the action here. This is H.L. Wallace. H.L. Wallace has the mental as the mental sharpness to prepare.
He knows that I think it’s Prentice at this point. I think that’s Prentice. Anyway, yeah, it’s Prentice.
Prentice is getting pushed back. He’s facing larger and larger numbers. It’s only a matter of time.
Wallace is smart enough to recognize that and assist his fellow division commander by putting together defense a half mile behind him on strong terrain, really strong terrain. Good fields of fire. He brings cannon.
So he’s got he’s got a pretty good defensive line now when Wallace is forced when Prentice is forced to fall back. He gets into Wallace’s line. And now we formed this Wallace Prentice defensive lines.
Yeah, didn’t I forget that Hurl her book this is now a strong position and the Confederates are become fixated on this is their this is their third significant mistake. The Hornets fixated on the Hornets nest. So so they have all the advantage of numbers.
They have the advantage of momentum. They’re sweeping through Union too. You know, they’re pushing them back pushing back and then they get fixated with the Hornets nest where they can where the Union Army has managed to put together their most positive defensive position of the day.
The Confederates decide they’re going to attack that head-on repeatedly over hours. Bad choice. He is a bad choice.
This is where I lose a lot of respect for General Bragg the Confederate commander. Yeah, I lose a lot of respect for him later at Chickamauga. A lot of respect for him.
I lose a lot of respect for that Chickamauga with his decision-making and his mission command command and control stuff. But here this is still Johnston’s battle. Johnston allows himself to get sucked in to the Hornets nest and Bragg is running the shelf and Bragg is a head-on repeated assault kind of guy and I mean the Confederates are getting mowed down and the reinforcements are coming and they’re getting low on ammunition and ammunition and all this stuff is happening at the Hornets nest.
Aren’t they supported also by the gunboats in the river? They probably weren’t being supported much at this point. I mean, they might have been firing but they weren’t really getting good close support until the final position where they were they really weren’t being supported. But yeah, I’m sure the gunboats were firing and trying to help.
Okay, but this was Wallace and Hurlbert and Prentice putting together a hell of a defensive position and a good fight complete with artillery support and all this stuff. So the Confederates now get bogged down at the Hornets nest for hours and the other part of the Hornets nest that’s part of the story is Johnston because he’s worried about that number. He’s worried about his right flank still because this is all unfolding still sort of simultaneously.
He pulls two brigades early in the Hornets nest fight that were ready to go take the hill before it was fully formed the defensive position. He pulls them out to support his right flank because he thinks that’s where the thread is. Those two Confederate brigades at that point probably would have overtaken the Hornets nest but he pulls them out.
So part of that big third mistake is this fixation with the Hornets nest and it cost them cost them out. And then another thing that happened in Hornets nest was Johnston gets so frustrated. That one of his subordinate commander says hey, Sir, my soldiers aren’t going to charge the hill anymore.
The Johnston says well, I’ll lead the next charge and he’s all motivational draws his sword charges on his horse. Luckily didn’t get killed out right and they do they do penetrate the line and they do some good but they’re they end up getting pushed back and I mean it’s amazing to me and I understand the passions involved here especially I mean in a fight like this obviously I’ve never been in a fight like this but I can only imagine right, you know Johnston thought he was doing the right thing but let’s be honest this general commanding the entire field army is now acting like a regimental commander or at best a brigade commander charging the hill step down a little bit. Yeah, so he’s he’s forfeited his role by the way he dies shortly thereafter because he got he got hit by a musket ball behind the knee and severed an artery and it bled in his boot and no one noticed until it was too late.
He fell half an hour after he came back from the from the charge for holes, you know in his clothing and whatever and I’m sure he was excited that he survived the charge but but half an hour later he turned pale limp and fell off his horse I mean and he died shortly thereafter. So not only did they waste time and effort and manpower and ammunition at hornets that’s their command patrol. Yeah, their commander was killed.
I mean he never should have done that that was stupid for the army commander to lead a tactical little charge like that anyway. So now the Confederate Army has no leader. Okay, so that makes things even worse.
There’s a period of confusion. They’re still confronted with the hornets nest. They’re still fighting Stewart, you know on there on the Confederate right flank for working and pushing Stewart back and just as Stewart retreats, you know, he’s told the withdrawal much so he’s ordered to retreat.
So the entire Union left flank is open. It’s an avenue of approach right to Pittsburgh landing. But what happens next PT Beauregard who’s now in command from the rear back at Shiloh Church, which was Sherman’s headquarters by the way, he ordered everybody to move to the sound of the guns to the heaviest fighting.
So those forces that Breckenridge is forces that would have driven right to Pittsburgh landing before Grant had the time to improve the position. They all start focusing back on the hornets nest. The demise opportunity lost big time big time by Beauregard’s weird order go to the sound of the heaviest fighting move to the guns.
Not a great tactical order. But they follow it. So everyone’s now back at the hornets nest.
Too many Confederate numbers. They held out for hours and hours, like six hours at the hornets nest. I think Prentice ends up surrounding 2,000 Union soldiers at the end, which is tough, but boy, he did his job.
So now the battle starts moving again, but it’s it’s now like almost dusk, you know, it’s soldiers are tired. They’ve been fighting all day long. They’re out of it.
A lot of them are out of ammunition. Confederacy was always running out of ammunition. And Grant, meanwhile, has not been idle.
He’s built a solid defensive life. So Grant’s back in the plus column big time. Now, he’s built a solid defensive position back against the river with gunboat support.
He’s taken the siege mortars even off the boats for the defensive position. I mean, that’s that’s a lot of work. Those siege mortars are gigantic, heavy things.
So he’s got a position. You know, good for Grant. So as the army falls back to Pittsburgh landing, the Confederates are basically out of gas.
I mean, they’re they’re just out of gas, out of ammo. It’s been a long bloody fight. Lots of dead.
Lots of lots of wounded. So by nightfall, by evening, the Confederates are trying charge after charge and Bragg said at the end, he goes, you know, I ordered one last charge. We all agreed all the all the Corps commanders agreed and they were going to make a final push, but Beauregard again calls it off.
Beauregard from the rear calls it off, thinking that he had Grant right where he wanted him, just worn out, beaten back against the river and he could resume his attack tomorrow. Oddly though, Beauregard didn’t issue any orders for a dawn attack or anything. It’s weird.
There’s no record of any orders for the Confederates to attack at six o’clock. Nothing, nothing. Was Beauregard aware of Buell? Was he aware that Buell was in the picture? Yeah, they were all aware that Buell was coming.
Now, they didn’t think Buell was this close. So close enough. So I’m glad you said that because Buell’s army in the in the late afternoon, his advance forces are arriving.
And by evening, he’s got like a whole division there that’s going to fight in the morning. He might even have two divisions there by morning that launched the counter-attack. So that night, so Grant basically holds it off, holds off the assault.
Union Army’s regrouping in this cul-de-sac, you know, of Pittsburgh Landing. And you know, this is where the famous quote from Sherman and Grant, whether Sherman comes up to Grant under a tree, it’s raining, like seems to always be at this point. So and you know, Grant or Sherman thought about asking about a withdrawal, but he thought better of it.
And he said, Eric, you could probably help me with the direct quote because my memory is terrible. But he said, did you have some despair? No, this was that was early in about that way. And that’s good because that showed Sherman’s cool, calm demeanor under fire.
But this quote was one that said, I mean, I can look it up if you care, but basically I’ll paraphrase it close enough. Sherman said to Grant, Grant smoking a cigar under the tree to stay a little bit dry. Sherman says, you know, something like we’ve had a devil’s own day, haven’t we Grant? And Grant says, beat him in the morning.
We’ll whip him in the morning. So, I mean, Grant was all about the offense, which of course, backfired a little bit in the beginning story of Shiloh, but there was no doubt Grant was counterattacking first thing a dog. So oddly, Grant didn’t actually issue formal orders and maybe the word just cut out because of what he said to Sherman and all that stuff.
But Grant, now Buell is unseen. Grant and Buell don’t get along really well. Buell is a little bit condescending to Grant because Grant just got his ass kicked, pushed back all day long and now he’s in this little defensive perimeter.
So Buell is a little condescending and you know their equal rank and so Grant was a little timid about ordering, you know, he’s not going to order Buell to attack in the morning. Anyway, both commanders, the good news is both commanders assaulted at dawn, the full Union Army assaulted at dawn. Now you can go in the last picture.
So do you think before we go into that, do you think Beauregard actually saved a lot of his men by that weird ghost order to not attack? No, or do you think that he could have made a difference in the battle if he had pushed? I think I mean, if you if you reconstruct this battle, the Confederacy had every reason to win. They really did. But they honestly with these mistakes that I’ve tried to outline, they really screwed it up.
You know, and I haven’t even gotten the details of mission command problems in the Confederate Army, which really plagued them a lot in different battles. Just the communication and the issuing of orders was weird. It just never made a lot of sense to me.
But this is no exception. So they should have won this battle and that’s why I still hand it to Grant. In his sheer resolve determination and Sherman obviously was a big part of that to just we’re not going to lose this thing.
We’re going to fight on. We’re going to hold ground. We’re going to give some ground if we have to and we’re going to whip him in the morning.
I mean, that was the whole thing. Yeah, it worked. It worked.
I mean, this is a great example of the power of a counterattack. I mean, the Confederates weren’t really expecting it. You know, they were caught off guard in the morning.
So, you know, let me take you back. So so this is the defensive line. You can see it and the gun boats.
You can’t see but they’re supporting the fire and it’s a strong defensive position. But I do think that the Confederates have played this differently even at this end stage. They could have overwhelmed this defensive line because the Union Army was still on its heels.
I mean, that’s my quick summary. I would have thought some type of flanking movement to Hardee’s left. Yeah, but you know when you start looking at Owl Creek and stuff on the ground, it’s it’s a bigger angle than you think and that’s why these battlefield walks and stuff are so insightful because you know the terrain, especially for us army guys, the terrain just dictates so much so much and you can’t understand it till you see it.
So yeah, that was swampier ground. Owl Creek was I mean, that’s really where well Beauregard not really Beauregard because he had a different concept of the operation, but that’s where Johnston wanted to push Grant’s army into those swamps and all that crap away from the river, right? Yeah away from the river into the swampy ground by Owl Creek. So I don’t think that would have worked.
Anyway, so this is where things ended. And you know fast forward. I don’t know if you have the other the last map of the counter-attack.
I do. Yeah, so in the morning, at 5 a.m. The Union Army just comes out swinging and the Confederates were surprised. Now they fought.
They fought hard and they didn’t give up ground easily, but but now Buell’s army is arriving. You know by the hour troops are being fed into the battle and you see the L Wallace up there not HL Wallace, L Wallace. There’s a lot of controversy.
There was there’s a lot of controversy around Wallace in this battle because he was camped up north. I don’t remember exactly the reason. Maybe it’s just space.
You know real estate space whatever Wallace’s division was up north a little bit four miles. There’s only four miles. Wallace was given the order to prepare to move when Grant steamed down the first time.
And then Grant the whole day earlier. Yeah, and then it gets worse. Grant sent a rider up to tell Wallace.
Okay, get move forward now and that happened early. I mean as soon as yeah, so Wallace this is where all the controversy is and there was actually litigation and oh wow. Yeah between Grant and Wallace and Wallace trying to clear his name all that stuff.
Oh, yeah, all that stuff happened in the Civil War. You just never read about it. Yeah, all these people were trying to clear their name and you know, all that all that kind of stuff.
So so Wallace’s reputation was destroyed after this battle because he got basically got lost. He died and he doubled back and he turned his whole division around and much different way and he was confused about where he was supposed to come into the battle like there was a road Purdy Road there. If you look at Purdy Road, he was going to come in on Purdy Road and hit the Confederate left flank.
At the time, this is obviously the next day, but he didn’t get there. He didn’t get there till you know that evening. Yeah, which is which which did play into the outcome, but regardless, that was a big controversy, but now Wallace’s division is pushing.
You got three Abules divisions pushing so that the Union now is outnumbering the Confederates. They’re fresh. They’re on the attack.
The Confederates are on their heels. They’re just given up ground repeatedly fighting tenaciously. I got I got to give him credit, but by by evening Beauregard called it said, okay, we’re done and he just headed south.
Grant didn’t pursue because his army was so strewn out and battered. That they were just going to regroup and take Corinth which they did. Yeah, from the readings.
I never ran into anything worth Beauregard or Johnston. Really made any kind of definitive move to go. Hey, let’s prepare some defensive positions.
Right in case of a counterattack. Were they that overconfident that they really thought they had the Union right where they wanted them? In this case, I don’t think it was overconfidence. I think it was just sheer exhaustion.
I think the soldiers were truly spent. I mean they were and remember you got screaming soldiers next to you and lying dead in the woods, you know, almost dead in the woods. Oh, that’s right.
That all that whole night, right? Yeah, and a rainy rainy miserable night. So I can’t give him God knows how many were out of ammo. Yeah, my dad imagined just sitting there in an army in a battle and I’m like, I’m out of ammo.
You got anything? Right. I’m out too. Right.
They did a lot of that actually and so they’re trying to resupply. They’re trying to get a little bit of rest. I mean, I’m I’m assuming just as a soldier that the average Confederate soldier was saying.
Well, the Union Army we kicked their act so bad today. They’re they’re just kind of going to be waiting for the next moves. That’d be active to us.
Yeah. Yeah, because they clearly had the initiative and they were just tired. They were tired.
So I think that and Grant’s conversation with Sherman. He already knew he was going to do. Yeah.
Yeah, Sherman was going to counter attack. No question about I mean Graham was going to counter-attack and Sherman probably helped spread the word because it worked and it was a great success. So Grant gets a lot of credit here for just his tenaciousness and his ability to counter-attack and win the day because even though it was a lot of carnage, they did open up the Tennessee River Valley and they proceeded to Corinth, which the Confederates had evacuated basically because they were so beaten that they just walked in and took the city.
So you could say the battle of Corinth played out here in the fields around Shiloh Church. But I said, yeah, in your estimation, does the battle of Shiloh take place if security would have been posted in early warning, you know, LP. I can I can only say that based on Johnston’s response to his subordinates questioning that they were compromised.
They would have taken place anyway. Okay. Yeah, Johnston would have regrouped and said, okay, they know we’re here.
We’re attacking it. Whatever. Because if they set up those defensive lines prior when they came, I see a total different outcome of this.
Yeah, I do too. At least in my head. I do too.
I mean, if Grant was thinking about fighting a defensive battle around Pittsburgh Landing. Yeah, he would have carried you would have carried the day a lot easier. I think especially if the Confederates stuck to their basic battle plan with the modifications that we talked about it would turn into disaster for it.
And had Peabody survived, I would have promoted him to a one-star. Yeah. Yeah, just for initiative.
Initiative. Absolutely. Put security out there.
I hear something. Yeah, Sherman. Yeah, Sherman and Grant would have been on the losing end of this.
They would have been done. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Sherman would have been done.
Sherman already had a bad reputation. He already had strikes against him in the Army. You know, he was hanging on by a thread, which is another reason I chose Shiloh, by the way, because we talked about Sherman and Grant’s importance.
This saved Sherman. This saved Sherman’s reputation and changed him as a soldier from this point on. And this is important in the follow-on, you know, march to rich, you know, march to through Atlanta and all that stuff, march to the Z. This changed Sherman.
It made him, unlike Grant, who was like more determined to be an offensive juggernaut, damn the casualties, damn the consequences, offensive juggernaut. Sherman actually became sort of the father of modern war, where you just destroy the enemy’s will to resist without creating battlefield carnage. And so this resource of Sherman.
Well, I thought it was interesting, too. A couple points, and I don’t mean to take your conclusion away from you, but I thought a couple points in how we just talked about Sherman and how this battle kind of made him, and maybe this battle kind of sunk Wallace, you know, at the same time. That’s interesting.
Also, the conversation that Sherman had with Grant, Sherman wanted to withdraw, right? He was going to suggest that. He was going to suggest it, but he didn’t. So I wonder if that maybe wore off on him Grant’s aggressive nature later in the war.
Yeah, maybe, but I think more importantly on the same, a similar vein, this built the trust between those two men that would carry, that would serve the Union Army exceedingly well through the rest of the war. That mutual trust and respect was built at Shiloh. And thirdly, I want to compliment, because these maps are right out of your books, and this one is fantastic in the sense that it outlines the counter-attack, and it may be hard to read if you’re watching it on YouTube or whatever, but you can see, this is 5 a.m., 6 a.m., 5 a.m., and then they call back to 11, and then 12 p.m. here, and then you can see the subsequent withdrawal.
So it makes it graphically so much easier to follow. Yeah, if I can’t find the maps, and I didn’t produce this map, I got it from, there’s a guy, and I wish I could give him credit right now, but there’s a guy online that provides these maps for free. He’s all about the Civil War, so you can get good maps of Civil War about, so it’s public domain, and he doesn’t mind obviously that I use him, and I, but if I can’t, if I can’t find maps to support a battle, I won’t do the battle, or I’ll create my own maps, which takes a lot of time and effort.
So, you know, I do create some maps with the help of other people, but you got to have maps. You got to see it visually. You got to see it.
You have to correlate the text to the map and people that really love battle digest, they say, yeah, I can read it in 30 minutes, but when I want to correlate everything, it takes me a couple hours to digest it all, but you got to have maps to do it. But that’s featured all the way out throughout your book and your trifold brochures that are available on battle digest, so that’s why it’s such a special product if you want to learn military history. Well, thanks Marty.
I’m glad you like it. I think it’s, I think it’s what we need. I think the military definitely needs it, but you know, the funny thing is most of my customers are just guys that like history, and I hate to sound sexist, but they’re mostly guys like 98% guys.
So, so, so you women out there, come on, let’s, let’s get with the program here. So I had one more question though. I did any of the Southern commanders, any of Bragg Pope, any of them serve prior to any of the Northern or Northern officers, were they West pointers together? I know a lot of that occurred.
A lot of that occurred. You got to go read Michael Sherr’s book about the Mexican American war. Well, I knew it occurred, but I was talking specifically in this battle.
Yeah, it occurred all over this battle and I can’t give you the exact names, but I promise you Eric that several of these Confederate commanders went to West Point and were in similar classes or one above and one below and definitely the Union Army. I mean, there was a big, West Point was the institution at this point in time. It did provide the Army with its officer corps.
You could have, you could have direct commissions and the states could appoint generals and like Grant might have been a, Grant might have been a general without West Point because the governor appointed him when he first came into the Union Army. He brought the Illinois, I think it was Illinois. It was.
Okay. He brought an Illinois regiment and so he was a colonel. So he didn’t have to be a West Point, but West Point was the only place that really, well, I mean the Citadel existed and the VMI existed, I think back then, but, but my point is that was the institution to produce Army officers.
Sure. Well, I bring it up because I was wondering what me as I’m contemplating a Northern officer that I studied with new tendencies. What tendencies occur here? What does, what does he like to do versus what I do to defeat that that I was just curious how that is that played.
Yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t read anything about Shiloh that talked about, you know, getting in the head of a of an opposing commander because I went to school with him, but there are battles that that happened in the Civil War and sure and yes, I mean it was so common in the Civil War that when I was a cadet at West Point, I had to memorize something which of course I long forgot, but it was something like, you know, of the 96 main battles of the Civil War, 87 of them were fought by West Pointers on both sides and 90% of the officers were West Pointers. I mean, it was, it was everywhere. Sure, sure.
Well, and now I just I mentioned, I think his name is Shara. He’s the one who wrote Killer Angels, I think, too, right? Well, is that Michael Shara, I think. Yeah, I forgot the author’s name.
Yeah, but he wrote a book about the Mexican-American war under Scott, Winfield Scott, the force that went down there and how Lee is a captain and a long street was in the artillery and all these guys were all on the same side down there. Right. And very junior rank.
Yes, that’s CG Oats. So that’s right. And Grant was down there as a captain, too, I think, and he did well.
I mean, these guys did, they burned reputations and tendencies, I guess, that you could extrapolate from the Mexican-American war. Okay, that’s the battle of Shiloh, gentlemen. I enjoyed that very much.
That, yeah, that was a week ago. Let’s go to the next one. I love breaking these things down, man.
That’s awesome. Yeah, it is fun. And there’s so much to learn and they’re all just fascinating stories and there’s stories embedded in them that are great stories on their own.
Like you could talk about Hornet’s Nest for hours and hours and hours and the back and forth and the mistakes made and all that stuff. The name, the nickname for the Hornet’s Nest was because so many balls were flying. That’s right.
The rifle balls were flying. Open fields of fire. The buzzing of the musket balls created the name Hornet’s Nest during development.
When you go through these battles, I’m always amazed at and not all of them, of course, but there’s a large amount that turn on something unexpected. Absolutely. You know, I mean, you could tell the one that comes to mind was when I read.
We were soldiers. Yeah, we were soldiers once in young. Yeah.
Reading the when they got back together when Colonel Moore got back together with the Vietnamese commander and they had the discussion. So yeah, fly on the wall. The Vietnamese commander admitted.
He’s like, I thought you were much bigger because of that lost platoon that was way out on your flank and we could never get around it. Yeah, but that platoon ran way too far and they were in contact with it. So it’s it’s those kind of things and when you talk about, you know, the surprise attack that they took the initiative on the south did.
Weren’t able to capitalize on it, but because Grant didn’t put those now normally those types of battles are like, okay, here’s why they failed because he didn’t put security out. But Grant was able to turn turn the tide. That’s right.
So it’s it’s weird how some of those those couple of incidents that you don’t plan on change really affect on the battle. That’s it’s a great point Marty. You could have the most brilliant campaign plan.
You could have the most brilliant concept of operation for your battle that you’re about to play and it will turn on some event or you know, something that the enemy does or even that, you know, Mother Nature throws at you. So it’s amazing. It happens all the time.
Yeah, every single battle you can find something. It’s you know, and I hate it when they attribute that quote to Mike Tyson and they’re like everybody has a plan till they get punched in the face. Yeah, I learned it as no plan survives its first contact.
Yeah, yeah, that’s the way I learned it. That’s right. And like Tyson paraphrased it and yeah, I loved I love to study the commanders and how they react to changing conditions that are they’re confronted with that’s a part of Battle Digest that I love because it’s always always relevant.
Is it all is Battle Digest or is it all US? No, no, I go back to the first recorded battle in history of the Battle of Megiddo in like 1450 BC. I’m trying to cover a broad spectrum. Most of my most the majority of battles are US battles because that’s where my audience is and people are more interested in Civil War and Revolutionary War, but I’m I’m trying to put together all of the classic battles in the history of the world.
How about naval battles? Haven’t done it. Well, I mean I did I did Pearl Harbor, which was a Naval Midway. I did Midway because it was fascinating story.
Talk about luck. Talk about luck in war like Clausewitz warned us about. Yeah, the one decision, you know, should I rearm my plane? Should I launch that next wave or should I wait and rearm the refuel? Yeah, I mean that’s a the point is I I do a lot of American battles, but I’m gonna I’m feeling it like right now.
I told you I’m working on the Battle of Hastings because historically there’s few battles as important as battles Hastings for changing the changed England and it changed Europe actually. So I like stuff like that. Yeah, that’d be interesting.
Yeah, but I did but I was serious about my book being like I wish every American not not as a sales job. I really wish every American knew something about those 12 battles. They’re not teaching the stuff in schools and it’s a shame.
We’re losing losing our history not necessarily on purpose. I mean, I’m not a big conspiracy theorist, but but we’re losing it. The young generation just isn’t being taught much about even World War II.
Ask the high school students who don’t know. That’s right. They don’t know the participants.
I don’t remember being taught very much, you know, I mean that was yeah, but you knew who fought who and like sure you probably but I also had an interest in it and I had a brother who was in and in the middle. But I don’t remember any class teaching me any of that kind of history. Well, I received basic history certainly, you know, all the way back to the Revolutionary War 1776 and yeah, who were the who were the participants.
Right, right, right. Yeah, I think these battles are something every American should actually know. Well, I tell you what sir as we go through the year here and your availability if we get closer to one of these battles anniversary, you know, we can call you back.
Can you do if I can do it? I enjoy talking about this stuff. So that’s not one one. I’ll have better pictures, you know, you did you did a great job pulling those right off the phone was that’s impressive.
Actually, if we could get you if we could get you in late June, maybe you can talk Gettysburg for July 1st. Oh, that’d be incredible. Yeah, that’s right.
But the invitations open. Okay, I you know, we could sit here all day. So that’s very enjoyable.
Very educational. I enjoyed it guys. And yes, I will definitely come back.
So let’s do it again sometime. Very good, sir. It was a pleasure, sir.
Yeah, nice to meet you virtually. Oh, I got to say my ending here because you know what index is. Yeah, well here on the podcast.
We have and death. That’s the end of the episode. So on behalf of all of us here and General Chris Petty, I’d like to thank you for listening today.
Please like share subscribe and let us know how we did the comments make sure next week that you’re not late for changeover. Eric Sir, thanks for the episode. Thanks for the week.
We look forward to having you back. Yeah, I enjoyed it very much. Thanks.
Mario and Eric was a pleasure to be with you and I look forward to doing it again. All right. Everyone else memo.
See you next week.